Podcast Season 5, Episode 2 Transcript
Ashleylucie Lumbala:
Welcome to Many Voices One Call. SUNY Schenectady's Civic Engagement Podcast. My name is Ashley Lucie Lumbala, and I am one of the student co-hosts and the SUNI Empire Service Corps intern.
Sion Hardy:
My name is Sion Hardy. I am the other student co-host. I am a teacher education major and artist, and this is season 5, episode 2.
Babette Faehmel:
And I'm the faculty co-host, Babette Faehmel. I teach in the liberal arts division. And today's episode will focus on a specific group of students with very distinctive pathways into the college, namely our student veterans. We want to talk about what it means to move from military life to college life, how our veterans experience academic life, and how we as classmates, as faculty, and as staff can best serve and support them. And for that purpose, we are joined today by one of our student veterans. We actually originally planned to have two, but there was a last-minute cancellation, unfortunately. But we are joined by Francis Edward Brown IV, honorably retired from the United States Navy, where he served as an air traffic controller. And Francis is now a student in the School of Music at SCCC. Welcome, Francis.
Francis E. Brown:
Thank you very much. It's great to be here.
Babette Faehmel:
And in addition, we are also joined by Schenectady City Councilman Carl Williams. Hi, Carl. By Stephen Onley, the director of the Veterans Resource and Outreach Center at Hudson Valley Community College, our sister institution. Hi. Very welcome. And by Executive Director of ASAP and Strategic Planning, Kevin Dean. Hello, Kevin.
Kevin Dean:
Hello.
Babette Faehmel:
All right. So I believe you all have a military background as well, correct?
Kevin Dean:
Yes.
Babette Faehmel:
All right. So thank you for your service and uh welcome to the podcast.
Sion Hardy:
To begin, can you all talk about what made you decide to join the military?
Kevin Dean:
I'll start. Hi, it's Kevin Dean, Executive Director of ASAP. For me, I was raised in the New York State foster care system and I aged out of the system at 18. And it's one of those things. I wanted to go to college, so I came down to one of the local community colleges and they had an entrance exam. I took it, and then I got to the point where they handed me a bill and they said, uh, FAFSA takes care of this. And I said, I don't know what FAFSA is. And they just kept saying, FAFSA takes care of this. And I'm like, I don't know what FAFSA is. And I need a place to live. And they're like, FAFSA takes care of that. I'm like, I don't know what you're saying. And I I literally, I was couch surfing because I was 18 and I had to stay with friends. I they opened the doors of the foster home and you're out. I'm like, I need I need some purpose. I need to get out of here. I'm I'm trapped in this like minimum wage job. I have no family, no support, no nothing. And I I just went to the army recruiter and said, do whatever you can to get me out of here.
Babette Faehmel:
Okay. Wow. Stephen?
Stephen Onley:
Yeah, I mean, my story's not not too much different. Uh, you know, after high school, didn't really know what I wanted to do. Uh tried going to community college, didn't do well because I I didn't know what the resources were. Um I uh again didn't have really a lot of direction, purpose, and you know failed to even finish my first semester, worked odd jobs, uh, and just kind of got to the point where I was like, I I need to do something just to get out of this situation. Uh I know I'm capable of more, I want to do more. Um, and uh you know, the got talking to a recruiter, did all the things and was out in three weeks. Yeah.
Babette Faehmel:
Wow.
Stephen Onley:
Yeah.
Babette Faehmel:
Carl?
Carl Williams:
Uh I would say for myself, it literally the exact same looking for a purpose, uh, sense of direction. I'm the one of six, so I always felt like I was in a leadership capacity. Um, but coming into like the real world, graduating out of like high school settings where you're very much structured or surrounded by a lot of resources, getting into the like adult world, um, just felt like I was spinning out, always had a strong work ethic, but never was able to find that right pathway to direct it to. So I think for me is looking for a sense of community, but something that I can really get lost in with a future in mind.
Babette Faehmel:
And we didn't mention that, um, but what branch in the armed forces were you in? Were you serving?
Kevin Dean:
Hi, it's Kevin again. I was a paratrooper in the army.
Babette Faehmel:
Uh Steven?
Stephen Onley:
Also a paratrooper in the army. I was in the 82nd.
Babette Faehmel:
Okay.
Carl Williams:
Oh, so it's the Air Force and then the Health Service Administrator.
Babette Faehmel:
Oh, okay. All right, okay. Well, Francis?
Francis E. Brown:
Navy Traffic control VFS ...
Babette Faehmel:
And what got you into the military?
Francis E. Brown:
Uh for me, yeah, I think I think every service member that has joined has done so for at least part of their reason being uh searching for a purpose. Um and and I really like the way that you worded that of searching, looking to be lost that in a way that has a future. And that's that's the perfect way because you know, everybody gets to boot camp and we're all we're all lost, we're terrified, we're petrified. Um, but very quickly in those first couple of weeks, you find a type of camaraderie that you'll never find in the civilian world. I truly believe you'll only ever experience that in the military. You you become bonded through your not knowing, you become bonded through your, you know, um, you're kind of, hey, we're gonna figure this out together, and that's that kept us all together. Um another big reason for me personally, though, was I come from a military family. My grandfather served in World War II in the Navy, and then in the Korean War, he was in the army. Um, and I have six or seven cousins, all army Marines.
Babette Faehmel:
Oh, okay.
Francis E. Brown:
Yeah. But I think the one that really kind of pushed me to go was my cousin Billy. He was a Marine. He was in Afghanistan and Iraq from 2008 to 2013, came back, severe post-traumatic stress disorder, severe schizophrenia, and uh unfortunately didn't live long, had to be uh shot by the police because of an altercation at home. It was a very tragic happening, and I was probably around 15, 16 years old at the time. And uh the only thing I could ever remember about him from the times that I was able to see him and be around him is that even with all the the stuff he had going on in his head, he was the most caring and and centered person I had ever known. He he really made it his priority to make sure that everybody in the room around him was safe and that everybody, you know, knew that he was there to protect them and not not cause any or allow any harm to befall them.
Babette Faehmel:
Wow.
Francis E. Brown:
Um and so that kind of inspired me. And then I also just had a friend who um I went through high school with. Uh, we went through Votec at Mohonason. We went for welding. He got out, went right into the Navy, and like a year later he's like, dude, you gotta join. It's great, it's a great career opportunity. And so I think he was the the final push that made me decide to do it.
Babette Faehmel:
Cool.
Ashleylucie Lumbala:
And um I would like to know if there's anything you all want civilians to know about the military, like, for example, demographics, the branches, the roles, the differences in the branches, everything civilians don't know, basically.
Carl Williams:
I can start it off. One of the things that was most uh perplexing to me, or it's mind-boggling, it's definitely something that once you think about it, you're like, oh, yeah, I guess there wouldn't be like a civilian counterpart to this, like core values in the military, like integrity first, serves for self, excellence, and all we do, it is ingrained in you, and it becomes like just I'm Carl Williams, and these are like you define yourself in that. I think some soldiers, airmen, um, seamen, they they embody that differently, but to an extent, like you have that that like is a part of your just core sense of being. Coming into the civilian world, you're like, I it's just not there, and then you're trying to understand what is that sense of being and belonging for this individual. And oftentimes it's filled with I have to look out for me and my family to a certain extent. And I think coming from the military where it's a sense of collective, like nothing is higher than the mission, that was a big adjustment for me.
Kevin Dean:
Yeah, it's Kevin again. I would also say it's not uh veterans are not a monolithic group, it's not like there's like one group, like they're not all combat vets, they're not all in this everybody has a sense of purpose and camaraderie, but you have very different cultures within each of the different branches. Uh the Air Force tends to be a different culture than the Marine Corps, those are kind of polar opposite cultures, um, and then there's a spectrum within there. Um, so you end up with this uh diversity of uh people, opinions, places. Um, so it's a very diverse group of uh veterans.
Babette Faehmel:
All ages, all like gender gender and gender thoughts, political views, just a representation of the civilian world.
Kevin Dean:
They've just lived four or more years in a specific culture that's I would say very different than the civilian world.
Babette Faehmel:
Right.
Stephen Onley:
That's actually what I was gonna say, is is sometimes I think there's a a stereotypical kind of picture of what uh a service member, military soldier like is, you know. Uh but really the military is a representation of America as a whole. You know, we we have you know every ray race, every gender, every religion. Um, you know, even immigrants uh join. Um you know, we have every like it, and that's what's really, really cool about it, you know, is it's just this one piece of service that connects us all.
Babette Faehmel:
Yeah.
Stephen Onley:
Everything else is different. You know.
Babette Faehmel:
Oh, right, right. Yeah, preparing for the episode, I was just really like noticing in myself how how much of my views of the military is just shaped by, I don't know, like a handful of movies and and a few thoughts and a few ideas. And it's really um I'm glad I'm glad this was suggested as a topic, and it's really very kind of like enlightening and illuminating and a good learning experience. So, but eventually you all um came to college. Was that kind of was the military in a way like a pathway to that? Was that from the beginning like kind of a plan, or was that a decision that you made eventually? And then of course, Francis, I want to know why Schenectady.
Francis E. Brown:
Yeah, I mean, uh yeah, I would definitely say, uh well, I mean, to be honest, the only reason that I came back to music school is because I I was here originally before the military in 2018 for the music certificate program. Um completed that, didn't really open up too much pathways for me. I just kind of worked jobs and and you know, hung out with family, did my thing, um, and then led up to that point of joining. Um, but I think deciding to come back to Schenectady was really just to accelerate that certificate to a degree. Um, and also honestly just take advantage of the GI Bill®, you know, and people hear it and they're like, oh, so you just wanted the money. It's like, well, yes, it's maybe it's what we served for, you know. I don't want my GI Bill to sit there and not be used. Um and it has helped me a lot. It's helped me stabilize myself financially and pay off credit card debt, pay off my old student loan debt. Um, and I could have been smarter with it with you know previous usages of my GI Bill. And so I think coming back to SEC this time was my chance to really set that straight and say, you know, this is the last of my GI Bill. If I'm gonna use it, I'm gonna use it to completely clean my slate and allow myself to kind of re-enter the world fully dependent on myself and no body else.
Babette Faehmel:
Yeah.
Francis E. Brown:
Um, and just yeah, just kind of to go back to the you know that that shared feeling of the military. Um, you know, like the core values, each branch has their own core values written out their own way. For the Navy, it's honor, courage, and commitment. And um it absolutely unifies us. I mean, I think civilians would be you know you mentioned the movies, right, and how it kind of paints this picture. I I think civilians would be very shocked, maybe even appalled, to be in a room of veterans um when they're comfortable being in a room of veterans, because we uh we can be intense and we can we can say some pretty wild things, but that's just kind of the part of it. I mean, when I got to A school, I had guys that were literally from Nigeria, just first time in the country, they joined the military, and they were we had everybody's just so nice, everybody was so inclusive because we were all here together, wearing the same uniform, a part of the same values. We had we had the opportunity to allow our cultures to kind of intertwine, and they would tell us about their home and their food and all this stuff. And it was like this immediate bond of camaraderie happens just because you can look at everybody that's standing next to you and say, Yeah, you went through what I went through. Yeah, you're here now, and we're gonna move forward at the same pace and at the same level.
Babette Faehmel:
Uh-huh. Cool. And I mean, I just want to add that of course it was also a part of your motivation to come back because our school of music is so absolutely amazing. Correct?
Francis E. Brown:
Yeah, it's I love it. It's awesome here. It's been that that's an absolute pleasure, yeah!
Babette Faehmel:
All right.
Ashleylucie Lumbala:
Okay, I love how we're hearing a sense of belonging, a sense of family. And like, I'd like to know, like, considering your backgrounds and your prior experiences, what was the transition to college like for you?
Kevin Dean:
I would say it was really rough. I remember that first day was a four-year school, and I I was much older, I was 27, and I sat on top of the hill, and I see these kids to me. I mean, they're kids 18, they don't have experience being a paratrooper and risking their life, and they're getting out of minivans, and mom and dad are smiling. And I remember thinking, I'm in the wrong place. I've made grave error by coming here. But then, you know, it kind of dawned me as I sat there, like, I want what they have. I want if this is the path to that, then I'll do what I have to do to to stay here and to learn how to exist in this much different world.
Babette Faehmel:
Yeah, yeah.
Stephen Onley:
Yeah, the the transition for me was uh it was rough for a long time. Um I've kind of been through almost everything that a vet typically goes through. I was you know injured in a jump, so I was um medically retired. And so I was dealing with injuries while going back to school. Um also like within was it like a year, a year and a half being back, I got divorced. So I'm dealing with that. Um trying to find my new place. You know, I was also about 27 when I got out, so having this 10-year difference, you know, was how do I connect with these people? Plus, I'm you know, I was in Afghanistan in '09, and it was for like a whole year and it was really rough. So I remember like walking through campus looking for snipers and just like just habit, you know.
Babette Faehmel:
Yeah.
Stephen Onley:
Um and uh I remember yeah, I still remember like driving down the highway and a bag kind of is sitting there on the side of the road, and I'm like moving over a lane, you know. Um so it was rough for a long time, but I think what what really helped um was just getting involved with things on campus. I was really involved with the veterans groups. Um I was president of the one at Hudson Valley, and uh when I went to RPI, I was uh the president there. Um and uh building that community myself. I didn't have it, so I was gonna make it, you know. And uh and that was really helpful.
Babette Faehmel:
Mm-hmm. Oh my God.
Carl Williams:
I can say for me, I was a little afraid. So I tried school before enlisting, and I think I was one of those individuals that was very gifted, but just didn't um um I didn't formalize all like the uh studying habits, and school just came naturally to me, and you get to a point where that's just not gonna work. And that was first week of college. Um so uh I think wanting to come to school, I recognized that on base was where I felt the safest. That's where all the resources were, that's where all my supports were, and even referencing it now in my civilian role, um, you have like your doctrines and like your policies, and you train until you can't get it wrong. And I just never had that um I never had that also reflected in like being a student. So I came to the first day of class of I need to be perfect so I can continue perfect, and I was afraid of that first uh hurdle would be a reflection of like why I wasn't meant to be here. So...
Babette Faehmel:
Oh, okay. Okay, yeah. That sounds familiar to me as the civilian as well. Francis?
Francis E. Brown:
Yeah, I mean I absolutely agree with that. It was it was a huge adjustment at first, and this is something that's known throughout the veterans community, is is that readapting to civilian life is what they what they call it. Um I mean, we even have instances of people who don't make it through boot camp, and it's called failure to adapt. So it's not anything new, it's something that is known, and it's just that struggle, that inability to smoothly transition either from civilian life into the military or back out of the military life. And I truly believe it's infinitely harder to try and readapt to civilian life and just pretend like you didn't experience all the things you experienced. Um, you know, the thing about walking around campus and you know looking for snipers. I mean, I'm I've I've stopped fighting it because I've found a very happy medium. Um, I will never stop being full alert. It's tiring. I don't sleep a lot. I've embraced it, it's the life I live now. I don't care. When I'm here, I'm always in a different mentality. I'm still putting my education first. Um, and at first it definitely felt like a struggle. It felt like I was having a hard time adapting, but I've fully embraced it. That when I'm here, I'm on full alert. If I see something I don't like, I'm gonna go investigate. Um, you know, because that oath that we take when we when we go into whatever branch we go into, there's no expiration date on that. It doesn't say, you know, after 10 years you've been out, all right, you can stop being a veteran. It doesn't matter, don't talk about it. You know, it's that's forever. So the same ethics, the same morals and values that I was taught even before going in, and that I picked up along the way from the great people that I got to work alongside of, those will stick with me. Um and they've they've definitely posed a hard challenge. You ... we do, I feel, like, it would be safe to speak for veterans kind of near my situation of having experienced school before, being a non-traditional student, not coming right out of high school, um, having that military experience and then coming here. We do feel a bit ostracized, not done on purpose, but it's just kind of the atmosphere, it's just the environment. It's hard for us to come in and be on a level ground with the people around us because a lot of them are fresh out of high school, so it's a totally different time of their life. They've got totally different experiences, and we're just coming back from that. Yeah. And it's it's it can be very difficult to come back into it.
Babette Faehmel:
Well, as you as you're mentioning that, um uh what is that like? Like, I mean, I can imagine that as like considering all your experiences and your background, and then you are in a classroom where your classmates are from early college, high school, 16-year-old, living at home to the grandma, um, from like with a like I don't know, like a full life like with her and whatnot. Uh because we have all kinds of students. What is it, what, like, how do you experience that? It's like is that sometimes hard, like the way the whole like classroom environment, the adjustment to that?
Francis E. Brown:
Yeah, I would say you get frustrated. Yeah, no, there's there's definitely been some moments where I feel that frustration. Um it's hard, it's it's it's a very unique mindset to fall into because you know, and and this is something that I believe just by human nature, but I also believe by faith. Um, you know, I I don't ever want to put myself above somebody and I want to be respectful of everybody's experiences, but coming into school and and having experienced the military and even just living my specific life, I do have a lot of insight and I do have a lot of opinions about things and the and a view of things. Um and so it can be it can be difficult to be around people who maybe haven't had those same experiences. Um and I can imagine it'd be difficult for them too and frustrating for them because you know that's that kind of creates that misunderstanding of, you know, I haven't lived your life, and so I can't really get where you're coming from, and and vice versa. Um but I will say that along the way through every college experience I've had, people have been very open to the fact that I'm a veteran, and people have been very accepting of that. And I I would say I've had less struggle. There's there definitely was struggle and and difficulty that I had to face and still do face, but I've met some really amazing people who just made me feel like one of them. And that's kind of that that's honestly, I think, the number one thing that civilians can do that makes veterans feel like they're back home again and like where they're supposed to be, is just talk to us like normal people, right? Like you don't have to be weird around us, you don't have to be like, oh, they're a veteran, you gotta like, no, just just we that helps us kind of reintegrate into society and to just be a part of you know the the normal civilian stuff is when you know I can walk into school and I have somebody start immediately making fun of me. I'm like, I love that. Yeah, in a good way, in a good way. Like a friend just being like, oh, look at this guy. I'm like, that's great. That's what I want, you know what I mean. I don't want to walk in and and feel like a shadow walking through the hallways.
Babette Faehmel:
Is that is that does that match your experience? Kevin and Stephen; Carl?
Stephen Onley:
Yeah, I'd I'd add to that as well. Um, you know, specifically about in the classroom, um I remember like the frustrating parts were, you know, if you can put yourself in that military mindset of just having that purpose, um you know, now having that direction um and having this capability of of working hard, being successful, and then you're in a classroom and other people are goofing off or just not paying attention or sitting there like tapping and like all these things and not not being here for what we're here for. Um I remember at first it was just really like frustrating. I'm like, what are you even doing here? Like now you're taking away from my experience and and my goal of learning.
Babette Faehmel:
Uh-huh.
Stephen Onley:
Um and and that was uh I think I think a lot of vets their first semester, especially that that's tough because you know, military training, you're all uh locked in, you know, and and on it. But...
Babette Faehmel:
Kevin.
Kevin Dean:
Um I just want to continue on with that train of thought and just I think I was very shocked by learning that my lived version of history was much different than the version that was being taught in the classroom.
Babette Faehmel:
Oh my God. Wow.
Kevin Dean:
Well uh that was kind of a stunning moment. Like, do I share my version, which is wildly different than the one that the professor who's the one that's like teaching this to me. So I I I think the the compromise I came to was in in a good way, was being open to saying, okay, I'm willing to expand my worldview, but I'm gonna share because I feel like there's some context to this that might be missing.
Stephen Onley:
Absolutely.
Babette Faehmel:
Yeah, yeah. .eah,
Stephen Onley:
I think that's important in the classroom. You know, that that's what makes uh student veterans such a a powerful uh component of a classroom is this unique experience, especially when some of us have been a part of these historical things, you know. Um and then there's there's much there's a big difference between like what you hear in the news, you know, what's written about, and what it was like being there.
Babette Faehmel:
You know?
Stephen Onley:
And so getting all these different perspectives, I think kind of gives you a bigger picture of what was actually happening.
Babette Faehmel:
Yeah. Do you think sometimes that uh the professors are like almost like like I don't know, hesitant to like because you don't want to like like pick you out of the classroom and say like talk about us, talk to us about your experiences, because I mean that that's also quite inappropriate, I would imagine. But do you do you think that sometimes professors don't really know how to address the fact that there are student veterans around them?
Francis E. Brown:
Absolutely.
Babette Faehmel:
Yeah.
Francis E. Brown:
Yeah, I've experienced that firsthand.
Babette Faehmel:
That awkwardness?
Francis E. Brown:
Yeah, absolutely. It's like you tell them and they're they're very receptive to it at first, but then once class starts rolling, it's like they don't even want to think about it or acknowledge that you're a veteran, and it's it's been odd to me because it's like it's who I am.
Babette Faehmel:
Yeah.
Francis E. Brown:
And you know, um, again, kind of you know, going back to you know, nobody's above or below anybody else. But veterans do have a a different perspective that I think everybody can benefit to hear from. And yeah, I mean that's that that would if I had been a part of something that historical and then come in and heard it told completely different than from what I heard, I would have like been blown back by that and been like, whoa, wait, what? That's that's not what happened. Like, this is what I experienced, you know. So that's that can be a very shocking thing. And and again, I and I wish I had mentioned that as well, but yeah, that first semester is is I think really a time that I tried to be a role model because I saw a lot of you know these kids that are coming straight out of high school and they just they don't have that attention span, they don't they don't want to have the motivation, they just kind of want to eh through the class, and I'm like tr I was there, I'd done it. Like I'm I'm back now though with a a reformed brain, a militarized brain, and I can tell you it's so much worth more worth it to just be serious about this, right? Focus on it, pay attention, do what you're supposed to do, take care of yourself because then when the end of that semester rolls in and finals start coming, you're not trying to get up and redo a bunch of missed assignments, you're not stressing out about things, so just set yourself up for success and you know be on top of that.
Babette Faehmel:
I I imagine that. And when you was when you were in the in the military, nobody was particularly concerned about your motivation.
Francis E. Brown:
Ye ah. Yeah.
Babette Faehmel:
Had to do it.
Francis E. Brown:
Yep.
Babette Faehmel:
Uh uh.
Francis E. Brown:
Voluntold.
Babette Faehmel:
Okay.
Carl Williams:
Volun told. Yeah.
Sion Hardy:
Um, can you all expand a little bit more on those mindset differences between um veteran students and non-veteran students?
Carl Williams:
Um, so I can I agree 1000% with the frustration part. Um, I think it's like time is a commodity that you just don't waste in the military, or it's very cherished. And at least for me, when I wore the uniform, you always recognized, or there always was an appreciation for what is my impact and how does it um influence like the overall objective. Um, so uh I think for me, you wind up stepping into those leadership roles like more intentionally, or I did, to help guide and be like that mentor. And that's when I just embraced the I guess I'm a leader. Um I think it was kind of uh it's like all insightful moment. And I think that's essentially what kind of spurred me into continuing that on into like the political uh structure, at least in the local city. Um but you talk about the perspectives that we have, that vulnerability comes with trust. Uh so I think you have to trust the spaces that you're in and that your comments are gonna be received well and then not morphed to fit into whatever reality the person listening wants to put you into.
Babette Faehmel:
Okay, yeah. So a mindset.
Stephen Onley:
Yeah, I think the the the big one is uh you know, this adapt and overcome kind of mindset, you know, which is really uh civilian speech, it's a growth mindset. You know?
Babette Faehmel:
Yeah.
Stephen Onley:
If if you know nothing goes perfect, we're we're trained how to respond to failure. Um and so when you're going through a semester, you know, and uh maybe a life event happens or maybe I don't do well on a test, you know, it's it's not oh woe is me for you know a veteran. It's just okay, what did I do wrong? How do I prevent this from happening again? And you're you're rolling, you're just moving along, you know, because that's how we're we're trained, where I see, you know, and this was even myself before the military in in my you know first semester at community college, it didn't go well, is I had one thing disrupt and I fell apart. You know, I didn't have that mindset. Right. Uh so that that would be, I think, one thing that really separates um you know your student veteran uh versus a traditional student is this adapt and overcome. Um and uh and I mean one thing I'll add because of that, it kind of makes you a natural leader.
Babette Faehmel:
Yeah.
Stephen Onley:
And if you really think about it, you know, the military has put hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of dollars into a single soldier, sailor, airman, whatever, right?
Babette Faehmel:
Yeah.
Stephen Onley:
As a as a college, you can utilize all of that training.
Babette Faehmel:
Right.
Stephen Onley:
Right, by by really tapping into these veterans and having them use that leadership that the government's already put a lot of money into. Right, right. And it doesn't cost you a thing.
Babette Faehmel:
Yeah.
Stephen Onley:
You know?
Babette Faehmel:
No, absolutely.
Stephen Onley:
So now you're getting these student leaders.
Babette Faehmel:
Like you have like natural-born peer mentors. Right. Yeah. So it's it's such an advantage. Yeah, absolutely.
Stephen Onley:
If you can really tap into your student veteran population on a campus, it's such an advantage for your whole community. Yeah. You know?
Babette Faehmel:
Well, Kevin, um, I was just thinking, considering um considering your background, the mindset, and that you are in student supports, right? Is that do you think there's a connection that that brought you there? Like you're natural you're calling, you found your calling?
Kevin Dean:
100%. And I think, uh, it's funny because we're kind of all different generations of the military in this room. And uh I also was a student leader, I was like dorm council president and uh assistant director of recreation as a student intern, and I took these leadership roles. Once I like everybody said, once I got plugged in, and I'm like, okay, it's my turn, I'm gonna be a leader on this campus. It once I kind of got that figured out, I was like, okay, I am a little bit older, I can acknowledge that, right? Um it's interesting to hear that everybody else had kind of a similar experience. Because to be honest with you, I never really thought like, oh, the other veterans also have had similar experiences. I just felt like it's just me here alone. And you know, there are only four percent of higher ed population as veterans. Yeah, which, while it seems pretty low, only one percent of the general population is veterans, so it's actually high...
Babette Faehmel:
Oh, that's that's yeah.
Kevin Dean:
Yeah. But it brings into context, I mean, I was divorced 27 years old. I was also injured as a paratrooper pretty badly. So here I am, injured 27 and divorced. So I see an 18-year-old kid and he's like, This is my view of the world. And I'm like, mine is dramatically different than your and that's okay, right?
Babette Faehmel:
Uh-huh.
Kevin Dean:
Um, yeah, so I think it definitely did lead to me wanting to help other people find that path to higher education, um especially disadvantaged youth, uh, veterans. There are a lot of roadblocks, and there's even more, so I'm so glad you're here from the Veterans Center because there's so many more for a veteran because we come from a very different culture, very different, uh, isolated culture. So I mean, uh, when I was on the base, you have a barbed wire around the base and arm guards on the base. And then I'm in a unit where I identify as being in that unit, and I don't go in the other units, and and then I'm in a squadron that identifies as being a part of that squadron on that base in that unit. So you're very, very, very, very isolated. Your identity as well is tied to that. And all of a sudden you're on a college campus and there's no fences, and everybody's gonna wander around, and I'm like, how do you figure out who you are here?
Stephen Onley:
Yeah, I think the identity piece is is huge, especially in like my role as you know, director of veteran services for the community college, helping vets kind of figure out who they are right now, right, i is huge. Uh, you know, one thing we deal with is called identity paralysis, and that's that that shift of um being one thing, like training to be this soldier, paratrooper, whatever. Um, and then all of a sudden you're not that in your head, you know, you're still that, you know, soldier, but your day-to-day is on a campus, you know, and it doesn't match up.
Babette Faehmel:
Right.
Stephen Onley:
And so it can it can actually exacerbate, you know, depression, anxiety, all these things on top of PTSD. Like now we're just into complex PTSD and you don't even know where to start. So really focusing on identity is is a huge part of what I do to help people transition.
Babette Faehmel:
So how how do you do that at Hudson Valley?
Stephen Onley:
Like what I I have a a kind of like a phased process. Um it's not very linear, it kind of ebbs and flows, but I start with community, you know. So we've built this community at at the school uh to get uh vets in and just feel like they belong somewhere. Um and then we work on purpose. I talk to them about why they're here, what they want to do next, um, and kind of make sure that their day-to-day, their reason for waking up, they understand what that is. Once we have that, I can really start, you know, we've kind of built our relationship and trust, and I can really start picking apart what they're thinking about who they are, right? If my primary uh identity is veteran, we're gonna have issues because veteran that's based on something I did. It's not something I'm doing, right? Now I'm not saying don't identify as a vet, right? There are important things that we learn from the military that are are great to bring with us, discipline, loyalty, you know, all that stuff. It just I don't think it should be our primary identity. It should be something maybe secondary or tertiary, right? But maybe being a music student, yeah, that can be my primary identity, right? Or being a father or you know, whatever it is, like that I can hold on to that piece because I'm just I'm not a soldier right now, right?
Carl Williams:
I was trying to understand like how you arrive at the thought of like that frustration. I've been really holding on to that, and I think I was I was really frustrated, like my first maybe my first year, and I think part of it was you're given these responsibilities that encompass like uh very, very expensive uh expensive equipment in the military or personnel. Yeah, and you come to a college campus and essentially it's like, all right, here's how you do a discussion post. And I'm like, what? Um so I I know I'm based, like I we I I think one of the topics you're gonna talk about is mental health. Like I always like preach to like people like there's so many resources, take advantage of the resources. I don't think they were so um strongly presented to me. I I think I went to school maybe a decade ago. So uh I appreciate the the um resources you have in place now. Um but I think sincerely for me it was I I I did feel like I was kind of by myself when I was off base.
Babette Faehmel:
Oh my gosh. It must feel so I don't know, like being put in a this kind of in somewhat infantilized position. Is is that how it feels? Cause' I feel, like, awful about how we do college?
Stephen Onley:
Yeah, it's it's definitely um I think we're just used to having so much responsibility and people trusting us to do things that when you're micromanaged, it's offensive. You know? Like I remember, you know, walking down the streets in Afghanistan with, you know, all the things and uh, you know, helping people and you know, the kids coming like excited to see us, and you know uh the the leaders of the town like coming to talk to us to ask for help and us actually helping, you know, and then you walk down the street here and you're nothing. You know?
Babette Faehmel:
Yeah, yeah. Like you feel like not seen and not not appreciated for what you can do.
Stephen Onley:
Yeah, and it kind of goes into that purpose, right? Right, like uh and not just purpose, but like our our unit, and all of you can attest to this, like you have a shared purpose. Like we're all coming to work that day to do the same thing, you know. Yeah, and we all are very aware of what that goal is. Yeah.
Babette Faehmel:
I mean, that's that just reminds me of of like other literature that that I'm aware of, where it's not just basically specific to veterans, but just about creating a sense of purpose and shared goals among students, where you have the people who have that kind of mindset, which is not limited to veterans, um like uh like being responsible, being a peer mentor, being a leader, and then kind of like doing like I don't know like a peer leader, peer leader, peer mentor kind of thing, but not like completely scripted by college personnel, but but more driven by the students', like, mindset, right? And like kind of, I don't know, affinity with those kinds of roles and responsibility. I remember um I was listening to a bunch of podcasts, like other podcasts about student veterans. Um, and um I I heard I remember there was one college, and but they they didn't have like a big veterans center, student veterans center, but the student veterans um put together a boot camp for faculty on how basically how to, well, like what they should know about veterans. And I did a boot camp style and it was like much appreciated, first of all, by the student veterans, and but also by the faculty who uh turned out to be very hesitant and awkward around these issues and not quite know not knowing how to address that. So maybe we need that too. We need a boot camp.
Stephen Onley:
Yeah, they've had ones they used to call it Operation Green Zone. Oh, oh yeah. Which which that terminology is kind of not really being used anymore because it has to do with like deployment stuff and it's just not really used now. But that's ...
Babette Faehmel:
So what is the green zone?
Stephen Onley:
A green a green zone, um, it's like a safe place.
Babette Faehmel:
Oh, yeah, that's what I thought.
Stephen Onley:
So uh now we have uh it's a military cultural awareness training. Um I'm actually working on developing a new one for for us uh with the help of the Center for Veteran Transition and Integration out of Columbia University. Um they're an amazing resource. Um they're always available for for any college uh to tap into and and get some help with how do how do we work with our student veterans, you know?
Babette Faehmel:
Yeah.
Stephen Onley:
Um so I've been working with them for about a year now developing this. Um and I'm sure it'll end up getting shared.
Babette Faehmel:
But are there also like virtual communities that uh would be available? Like I know there's Student Veterans of America, is that or something like that?
Stephen Onley:
So yeah, Student Veterans of America is um uh is basically like a organization for college clubs, like your veteran club. Oh, okay. Uh can become a chapter of the Student Veterans of America. And then you have you know the national conference where you can go and network, which is uh a huge uh benefit to our our student vets and uh veteran faculty um just because there's there's so many opportunities to connect with people.
Babette Faehmel:
Uh-huh. Mm-hmm.
Francis E. Brown:
I'd also mention uh Vet TV as well. They're uh a pretty large growing network, and they I think they show the more true side of the military, but it's nice because if you just kind of follow along with them, you uh you'll I mean just in the comments of their posts, you'll you'll run into other veterans and you can I've seen veterans strike up conversation there and kind of build a community within that. So, you know, it's vet TV's definitely out there, but uh but it's it's it's had a positive effect in where it's given people, you know, some more understanding of what it's like and it's it's kind of brought veterans together and something that's more realistic. Yeah, you know, I know we all love the the war movies, you know, Fury's great, but that stuff is just not very realistic. It's not what the day-to-day is like. You know, people think that we wake up and we check our compass and we check the wind and then we're going out on recon. It's like, oh, you wake up and you slam an energy drink and you go to your your work and they say go mop something or go, you know, do paperwork, or go pick this up, or go set this up. I mean, not every day is is like a movie, but those days I think are some of the most important because those are the days that you're really trying to build with the people you're around and create that community to keep each other going. Because those days can be very monotonous, they can be very dull. And so to have some way to get through those, it's nice to have people around that you know you can do it with. And I feel like we can start to feel like that in the civilian world when we return, is we might feel I mean, that's how I've honestly felt for the last couple of months, just struggling with school, trying to keep myself motivated, is it feels very dull because I feel like there's not that same level of camaraderie. Um, you know, kind of going back to just walking down the street and you're nothing. You know, nobody knows who you are. And it's and it's like, you know, I I want to make this known that we don't I don't think there's a single veteran, I've never met a single veteran who is like dying for you to say thank you for your service. It's like we don't, we're not like we don't want everybody to do that for the sake of just appreciate me even what I did, but I don't think people understand that that acknowledgement is really just a baseline level of respect that tells that person, you know, I'm not gonna look at you and and assume what your political beliefs are or what kind of person you might be. I'm simply going to acknowledge the fact that you volunteered to sacrifice some of your rights and years of your life to go and provide for the country, you know, protect us. No matter what you did, you were doing something. You were you were contributing in some way, shape, or form, and we appreciate that as the American society that the military preserves.
Babette Faehmel:
Right, right, right. Do you sometimes encounter uh biases and stereotypes coming from other students?
Francis E. Brown:
Yeah, absolutely. And and it's actually I mean, yeah, I'll I'll speak completely openly on this, um, you know, kind of back to that ostracization thing, um, especially with events like, you know, the murder of Charlie Kirk, things like that. People that I I have not even spoken a word to of my political ideologies or anything of that nature, um, are have basically shunned me now and refuse to acknowledge me, they refuse to look in my direction, they won't have conversation with me, and at the end of the day it doesn't bother me. I don't really care. And and this this will kind I'll end with the the capping point of that, but it does make me kind of take a minute and go, why? Why do you why does that bother you so much? Why do you have this preconceived notion because I I serve my country that I must be all these things, but you've never actually taken the time to have that conversation. And I know that all of these people who have made that choice to, you know, kind of ostracize me and shun me, I know every single one of them knows that I've done nothing but be nice to them, you know, and I al I have everybody here's back, right? I might not agree with all of your life choices, I don't care. You're all humans, and I'm going to make sure everybody here is heard, happy, and alive. And that's it. You know, whether you like it or not, too bad, you know. Um, but to kind of cap that all off, I I think a big part of that is just I truly believe that we as a people in America have gotten so thin-skinned. There are way too many people who are offended by everything and can't just take a minute to be like, all right, maybe rather than jump right to a hundred, maybe rather than go right to the most extreme response, the most extreme reaction, why don't we just either create a dialogue or at least just try to understand someone's side of things? And hey, if you dish it out for two hours and you can't see, you know, you can't understand why we chose to serve or or why we think what we think, then just say, okay, agree to disagree. But we're both Americans still, so we'll just go about our day.
Babette Faehmel:
Yeah.
Francis E. Brown:
It's really that simple.
Babette Faehmel:
And I mean, it makes perfect sense considering, again, your background, your experiences in the military, where you just have to talk to people you don't know, have to talk to people who might have said something that would not really vibe with you. But you don't have, I mean, you you are confronting people in real life, not through a screen, right? And I think, I mean, we come, that's funny, like, because we we come back like in so many on so many in so many like I don't know, moments we come back to this conversation about thin skinnedness and like how the how the whole like environment, political environment, cultural environment is kind of shaping, shaping you, and how we kind of like need to get out of that. Like you need to again touch grass and like actually talk to people and have them sitting right in front of you. Um, so and and yeah, so like Kevin, can we do more like that? Like in space, like spaces create spaces for dialogue?
Kevin Dean:
I think we do that every day.
Babette Faehmel:
We do that every day. That's yeah, that's true. In classrooms...
Kevin Dean:
I think community college is the perfect place for veteran students because you're gonna get a student who's a little bit older, who has a little more experience, you're gonna get a very diverse group of students, it's an open institution, it's open enrollment, you're getting you're it's you're bringing in the community, and that's what we were talking about. That's when you have veterans, you know, all sorts of religions, ethnicities, even opinions. Yeah, it's not a monolithic group. I've got people that had wildly different opinions, but we did the same exact job all the time and supported each other, and we completely 100% disagreed with each other. So community college is a really good place for a veteran to start. Uh I started at the four-year school, and it was very confusing because they just had very different views than me. And I don't I probably didn't do it so well. I ended up back in. I went back in because I was like, I I don't think I did this right. Let me go back.
Stephen Onley:
I totally agree. Like community college is is the best place for transition, not even just for for veterans, but for anybody. That's what community colleges are built for, right? I'm I'm in some place in my life, I'm trying to get somewhere else. You go to community college, right? Yeah. And you kind of figure things out, and then from there you branch off or to whatever. So it really is a perfect place to to have you know veteran centers and uh you know veteran-specific um uh faculty to to help with you know these student vets figure things out. I also think there's there's on average, it's much better now than it used to, but on average, there's a lot of focus on the getting student veterans in. There's uh limited on what's happening while they're there, and then there's not much for for transitioning out of community college or really school in general. Now this is getting better, uh much better than you know when I was in school like 10 years ago. Um but we really gotta f... your your planning right needs to be for that whole uh spectrum of of time before, through, and after uh community college.
Babette Faehmel:
So considering that, I mean, we might not have necessarily all the resources in place to fully support like a veteran center. Um are there other things that we can do like as faculty and as as student support staff that I mean, because I I I wonder if if it has to be specific to veterans or if there are also ways to just tap into like veteran skills and and mindset again, right? And then have more holistic services for uh that other students too could benefit from? Like what what I mean what what would you say would be ideal adjustments that can be made even in the classrooms and individual classrooms?
Carl Williams:
So it's funny that you should mention that because uh you referenced something and it's made me think of the uh social media and how having more just technology has put military in some households where your only association with it might have been Full Metal Jacket, yeah. Um, where you have these like dance trends and people are doing it while they're in uniform. And I think how people interpret that then based on how much you love like the flag in the uniform, but I think it it disassociates this understanding of you can't be free thinking in the military, the military is only read, and I think it makes it more um like palpable or like digestible. And you're like, all right, there the only thing different is you just said for four years or for an extended period of time, you are going to give yourself to the country. And that shouldn't be shun, that shouldn't be put into a box. Um, but I think you just have the conversation openly. I think some people are afraid because of once you present at that door of how is your service, you are truly at the mercy of how open they're going to be in response to that. But I think if you do it in a safe space, like in a sandbox, um, where your learning is meant to, you don't have to be perfect in the sandbox, um, but you have structures in place to support you if you do fall and they pick you back up.
Babette Faehmel:
I mean, in a way, this is kind of like the the ideal resilience story, right? Or the ideal like personal development story. You you go into the military and like being kind of clueless, being sort of, I don't know, like not really knowing what you do, what to do, and then your mindset is changed and you learn and like be like you, I mean, it's it's just you learn the hard way and the uncomfortable way, right? And you you learn through challenges and failure and overcoming. And and I I mean, I don't know, like in in a way, it seems like maybe we maybe, oh gosh, I can't believe I'm saying this out loud, but maybe we got too much away from that, you know, because we're always thinking about um how can I make this safe? Um, but I don't know. I don't know if people grow that way.
Francis E. Brown:
So to speak on that a little bit, I I will say you know, the military, we have a lot of sayings, and one of those sayings is get comfortable being uncomfortable. And I think I absolutely agree with that. There are too many people who are walking through life expecting to be comfortable every second, and the second they experience some level of discomfort, everything shuts down, right? And kind of going back to what you were saying earlier about, you know, when something happens when we fail, we just go, okay, let me analyze why I failed, let me figure it out, let me try again. Right. So I think we need to, not just as veterans, but as everybody everybody should just have this better approach to life and and be comfortable with the fact that you're not always gonna be right, you're not always gonna succeed, right? Take every opportunity of failure, of different people coming around you and in your space to learn from that and get as much information as you can. Um, you know, as far as on the school level of what they could do, provoke us, ask us questions. Like everybody's like you said, everybody's afraid to say, oh, hey, how was your service? or what kind of stuff did you do? What kind of stuff didn't you do? What is it really like? If if more people would ask those questions, I think that there would be a much more, it would be a much smaller buffer zone needed for that transition into throughout and out of college for veterans because we would naturally feel more comfortable being around people who feel comfortable coming up to us and just saying, Hey, tell me about you and the Navy, tell me about you and the Marines, those kind of conversations.
Babette Faehmel:
Right, right. And and once again, in the community college, you have the perfect, like I don't know, environment for that. I mean, you you don't have to artificially create it. Um Carl and I, um I don't know if we met there, but um we we definitely like encountered each other at a Braver Angels training, right? Where where the whole like setup is is meant to make you have an uncomfortable conversation. Um so yeah. Um but but we don't necessarily have to like artificially create that if we just have the spaces and like kind of interactions.
Carl Williams:
And along that point, I don't know if it's unique in the magnitude that uh SUNY Schenectady does it, but having the involvement from the community to bring in different events or resources or change agents or champions, I think that broadens your awareness too, because very much there's a lot of love and support in the City of Schenectady. Not just saying that because I'm elected to, um but very much I love our city and our community a lot.
Babette Faehmel:
Yeah. Do you...
Sion Hardy:
So, I was wondering, has your experience taught you skills on how to get through stress and protect your mental health that listeners may be able to benefit from?
Francis E. Brown:
Yeah, absolutely. Um I I would say it's really just experiencing a very unique kind of stress and a very unique kind of attack to your mental health as veterans. You know, whether it be you were a combat vet and you saw something that no human should ever have to see, and that's what caused you to have that mental disdain, that mental unrest. Um, or whether it was just the stress of, you know, when you're in the military, it is kind of just like civilian life, but it it placed in a separate realm, placed in a very isolated realm. Um but you're still it's still just normal life. You know, you still get stressed out, you're still like, oh man, my chief won't get off my back about these papers. You know, it's you run into all the normal everyday anxieties and depressive states. It's all stuff that we experience. Um if I could only give like one sentence of advice to anybody to to kind of manage your mental health. I mean, it's gonna sound repetitive, but it we keep saying these things because it's the way to go, is be open about it, right? Find someone that you truly are comfortable with. Don't feel like it has to be parents, right? Because you might not be comfortable talking with your parents yet about mental health or with uh you know your brothers or even a friend. You might you might have a very specific kind of person you're looking for. So find that person, be open about it, and um don't constantly remind yourself that you're not you're not alone in the world. I feel like that's the the most dangerous part of depression, especially. Um, and I can speak from experience. I struggled with severe alcoholism and depression when I was in the Navy to the point where I made an attempt at my life, and I'm glad I'm still here today. And it was yeah, I mean you come out of that and you're just like, wow, I was really in a dark corner that you can't even really think clearly. You can't you can't think outside to say, hey, maybe there's other people going like this. No, you feel you feel the the corners of that box closing in very, very tightly around you. Um, and it's it can be really hard to to kind of break free from that, but just constantly keep reminding yourself that you're not alone and that if you have to run through the streets wild and go up to every single person you see and say, I need to talk to somebody. And if they ignore you, go to somebody else. Keep doing it, somebody will talk to you, somebody will have your back.
Babette Faehmel:
Yeah, yeah.
Francis E. Brown:
Keep fighting.
Babette Faehmel:
Yeah.
Stephen Onley:
I'll say the the military kind of has uh some stress management hidden in their training, and it's specifically in rifle marksmanship. And it is it's exactly what breath work and meditation is. Oh yeah. Yeah. So you have to ground yourself, you know, get a steady position, um, you know, get your your target lined up. Um what's the third one? Or breathing, controlled breath, and then you do a a controlled squeeze on the trigger, but it's it's grounding yourself, right? Being in tune with your breath, focusing on your target. All of this is is meditation and breath work. Yeah, and it's built into our our training.
Babette Faehmel:
Uh-huh.
Stephen Onley:
I think maybe a lot of uh, you know, vets don't realize they're doing it, but that's why so many veterans love shooting. Right? It's not you know, hunting or or even target practice, it's because you get that feeling of finally being calm because you're doing breath work.
Babette Faehmel:
Yeah. Wow.
Carl Williams:
You know mine was gonna be tactical breathing. I think when you get really anxious, really ramped up, uh that fight or flight me uh mechanism. And I think people do a lot of analyzing of, well, do I do this or do I do that? And then what the military has taught me is you have to respond. And if you respond inappropriately, we can I we can dissect that after the fact, but not responding I think is worse sometimes. Being frozen, yeah, absolutely. But uh very much the take deep breath in, hold it, breathe out, you do that four times, you are naturally calmer, and then you re-engage.
Babette Faehmel:
Uh huh. Uh-huh. Okay.
Kevin Dean:
Kevin. I feel like it might be slightly different than this. Uh especially as a paratrooper, I felt like uh an immense sense of pride in being a paratrooper, and I knew like, okay, I can accomplish things. But I I did not when I got out understand how that translated to getting through college. And everybody mentioned it just took me a long time to figure out. The first semester, I'm like, okay, I don't feel comfortable here. By the second semester, I'm like, I'm comfortable, but I don't feel like I have any real connection to this place. So they just kept taking me down this path where I'm like, I didn't finally find it through the leadership activities. It wasn't it wasn't an easy transition for me. It wasn't smooth where I was like, oh, I'm gonna take my leadership skills and become president of the dorm council. I was just like, I don't know anybody here and I don't seem to understand them. So it took me a long time to integrate. Um for me, it took me just a long time to figure to figure that out, like the how what those skills were and how they were gonna help me.
Stephen Onley:
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I'm I'm right there with you. Like I've I've been out last January, hit ten years and uh it's been that whole time learning this stuff. You know, I even realized um you know, working in higher ed, uh it really it's a great place for for veterans because your your college it's really a battalion. You know, and if you look at it like that, like all the different pieces of the unit are there, you know, your your teachers are are maybe more representative of like your infantry, but you have a finance department, like you have, you know, uh public affairs, you know, marketing, uh you you have all these like units and places you belong to and stuff, and viewing it that way has made me feel even like I like I understand it more, you know. So I think like kind of like what he was uh alluded to is there's this you have to make the connections of of the military stuff. And it's not always obvious, you know, but there's a lot of connections from how we lived our lives in the military to what's going on now. And once you can make those connections, like all of that that training and and stuff just comes back into play. Yeah, you know.
Babette Faehmel:
The ultimate transferable skills.
Stephen Onley:
Yeah, it's all transferable, you know, especially leadership. You know, it's it's a lot you'll see a lot of vets, uh, especially higher ranking, uh, that have been in for like, you know, the 20 years, look at their project management certificate and stuff, you know, because that's essentially what we're doing.
Babette Faehmel:
Yeah. I would I I must say that that like leadership skills or leadership, like the kind of leadership personality is definitely something that I would have associated with like veterans, um, just based on like very little real knowledge. But I think what what I am what what did at first surprise me until I thought about it and I thought it made perfect sense was the emphasis on service. So, I mean, that seems to be also a very strong constant. Um how would you how like what what is what is your feeling about this kind of like idea of service that do you think that that has gone Out of style in the current young generation or like in the national, I don't know, culture. Or is it still there? We just have to tap into it.
Carl Williams:
So I can quickly say I I don't think it's gone out of style. I think as people have their priorities, it's service to who?
Babette Faehmel:
Okay.
Carl Williams:
I think for us as uh service members, it was in service to the country. And I was thinking like you said voluntold. So you're talking about how do you force that collaboration together. I remember we had a lot of mandatory fun, and it was you're going to get together and you're going to enjoy each other's company because you have to. And the sooner you accept that, the sooner we can build upon that. Uh-huh. Um, I think if presented the question, a lot of people are like, Well, why do I want to do that for someone else? Like, I see a piece of trash on the ground, I hold myself accountable, and I'm like, Am I gonna be that thousandth person that just steps over that?
Babette Faehmel:
Yeah.
Carl Williams:
And then what behavior am I modeling? Yeah. So I think when you think about service, a lot of it's a lot of looking at myself less and then looking at the collective more. And I think that just people have uh just levels. Like, I do that for my family, I do it for my best friends, or do you do it for a stranger? And that's the difference between let's say us.
Babette Faehmel:
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I mean, that would be something that is very hard to mandate or like to train into somebody. I mean, that's that comes that comes through experience, right? Uh but but also, I mean, where does that experience start? Like you you make that if you you learn through the doing, or you you learn to appreciate it by doing it. So do you do you sometimes no?
Francis E. Brown:
No, yeah, I mean I I would say it's a f it's a form of wisdom. It really is. Is it's not something that really can be taught. I I think I think people have just become, you know, kind of with like the priority thing is, you know, I know what people prioritize now, right? They prioritize themselves, and that's not necessarily a bad thing, you know, and then they'll prioritize their family. Of course, that's a great thing to do. But I think a lot of people have started to put prioritizing contr, you know, contribution, community, just us, America, the country, like we don't even want to think about that as one of our priorities, and that just kind of I can't really wrap my head around it because to me, service is contribution, right? Um, I'm a barber, I'm a licensed barber in the state of New York, I'm a veteran, I'm a lot of different things. I got a lot of weird things under my belt, but being a barber is where I've kind of found my happiness. Um, not because I'm like a weirdo who likes hair, but no, I just it's a way to contribute, it's a way to give back, you know. I I love the feeling of somebody comes in and, you know, this guy's just not having a good day, and he's like, Yeah, I know I'm gonna get a haircut, and I give him the haircut the best I can, and it just lights up his day. And then he might take that and go and bring somebody else's day up, and then they might go and bring somebody else's day up. So service is a direct contribution to community because if we can show each other that, hey, I have your back, no matter what happens, they're gonna have your back. And then someone else is gonna see that and inspire them, and just having a strong acknowledgement and appreciation of service of country, of neighbors, of community, all of that builds a very strong fortitude and a very strong camaraderie that honestly could surpass the camaraderie that we get in the military. And that would that's the goal. I would love to see a type of camaraderie envelop itself around the country that surpasses the levels of camaraderie that exists in the military. That would be an excellent thing.
Babette Faehmel:
Yeah, that's a goal to strive for, definitely. Uh Ashley, Sion,, how would you say, like as students, um, because I mean I know you as like service-oriented, goal-oriented, like like not, I don't know, like I don't want to say special, but I mean you are who you are, like you are a student um Service, Empire Service Corp intern, and you are an artist and like a very like communally oriented person. How would you say your experience compares with what you heard about like the veteran experience? Where do you see parallels and differences?
Ashleylucie Lumbala:
Um I would say that I see um similarities and differences in um the way they do things and in the way I do things. Well, I would also say maybe it's because of the way I grew up. And um one of the similarities that I see with them is also like um I'm also I'm a very goal-oriented person. You know, I want my things done a certain way, and if I miss certain things, it's like okay, I miss them, but then I don't ponder too much on what I missed. Like if I can, I'll go back, but if I can't, then I'll just have to move forward because life keeps on going forward, and that's one of the things like they all mentioned. Yeah, I guess that's similar. Yeah, but then obviously, um the way they view college is different for me. From me, it's a very different. Um they said they were much older when they came here, and it's like okay. I mean, I I could imag... I can imagine because I think being in college for me, it's also kind of I don't know why it's hard making friends in college, but it's it's not not not that it's hard, but it's like, oh, okay. It's you're you're it's not like high school. We're seeing it's a lot of people, diverse people, in one place. It's it's interesting to me, you see. And for me, in the beginning, I was like it was a bit rough, but then I got into it and I everything was okay. But then like I can imagine when you have like a big age gap, and it's like, oh how how do you how how do you how do you get back into that um in into into that college after being in service? Yeah that's very different. That's the very different from like me as a student and somebody that was in the military. Yeah. That's what I picked up from what you all said.
Babette Faehmel:
I mean, thank God it's not like high school. I hated high school.
Ashleylucie Lumbala:
I liked high school.
Babette Faehmel:
No, thank you.
Sion Hardy:
Um, I think of the idea of service and being involved when it comes to like building community. Um, you build these relationships that like kind of just becomes like this this like I don't know the word, but like it makes me think of like military service and how you guys have your community and um I think about like stepping outside of my comfort zone and able in order to be able to be a part of these communities because I'm a very introverted person and um I'm not very social, but I'm also passionate about um like the well-being of others and things like that.
Babette Faehmel:
So yeah. Yeah, I can I can totally relate. Like I'm I'm not I'm not at all a social person. I I'm I'm happy when somebody cancels something. Like it's just so joyful. Um and I'm I'm an introvert, but I also I have to say, I I when when I am in an environment where I have a like a purpose with other people and we do the same thing and we have sort of like an overlap in like the goal, even though we might clash and all sorts of attitudes and and and I don't know viewpoints, that is enriching, right? That is so valuable. And then if I and and if I if I just listen to my inner comfort, I don't know, my inner comfort gremlin, I would probably not go to those places. But I also know once I am there, once I'm in the work, it's just it's just good. It's just it makes me me, it makes it enrich your soul and whatnot. And we have just too many opportunities to not do that, like to just kind of hide behind a screen.
Ashleylucie Lumbala:
Which yeah, I want to like add on to that. That's like it's interesting because they said that they they are forced, they didn't have the choice to like say, okay, I'm gonna sit this one out, or I'm gonna go. Like you guys said you were actually forced to come together and know each other while this we don't we have I have the choice to decide and say no, I don't want to.
Babette Faehmel:
Yeah, absolutely.
Francis E. Brown:
Yeah, I mean I think it instills like you know, going back to boot camp, the the whole purpose of the way they train you is they they do want to break you down, they want to test you, they want to see how resilient you are. Um, but once they see you can make it to that point, the whole goal of of the military is to build you back up. Um before the military I had no confidence. I was a very isolated, inward-kept person. Um I was very defensive, I didn't want to give people the you know the time of day or consider their thought. Um, but the military kind of bestowed that into me and made me a better version of myself by making me more confident, by making me more patient, by making me more aware, more disciplined. Um and I think it's all of these things that allow us to kind of go forward and yeah, you know, I'm still kind of an introvert. I don't really like to, you know, go around too much, but I can never deny that we were we as a species are meant to be around each other. We're not meant to be hidden away alone in corners. Um and you know, I I think you know, you look at COVID, and I think that had a really harmful mental health impact on people that has pushed them to a point where they they almost became like cave dwellers where they want to preserve that comfort that they were able to make. They kind of had to scramble to make that comfort in a very unknown trying time. Oh, are we w having a fire alarm?
Babette Faehmel:
Yeah, that's awesome, fantastic. Well, we are actually almost done with um our well, our hour is up and we have pretty much covered all the talking points. So even though this uh fire alarm is highly inconvenient, um, we um I think we had an amazing conversation um with some amazing impressive people. So um let's close it here before we all get kicked out.
Babette Faehmel:
Once again, Carl Williams, Schenectady City Councilman; Stephen Onley, Veteran Resource Center at Hudson Valley, Kevin Dean, ASAP Director, and um Francis. Thank you again so much for suggesting this topic. And um, well, Ashley and Sion, as usual, you were amazing.
Babette Faehmel:
Many Voices One Call is made possible thanks to the generous contributions of the SUNY Schenectady Foundation. The recording of the podcast is supported by the School of Music, our student editors Eileen Alvarado, Carter Maxon, Sebastian McHenry, Dylan Bruce, and Cole Schilling, and of course, as always, Professor Sten Isaacson.
Babette Faehmel:
A special thanks goes to Assistant Director of Academic Advisement and Retention Anna Westerman and the Vice President for Strategic Initiatives & Planning Dr. David Clickner for their help and support. Thanks also go to Vice President of Academic Affairs Mark Meachem, College President Steady Moono, the Student Government Association, and the Student Activities Advisor. Please stay tuned for more episodes like this on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.